BONUS: Andy McVittie - Youth Climbing PT
Andy is a climbing PT and this is his second time on the podcast. This time, he’s here with new research to talk about why youth climbers are maybe overdoing it with the climbing training, what early arthritis looks like, and the surprising dangers of outdoor climbing when it comes to competition climbers.
Timestamps
Timestamps of discussion topics
0:00 - Intro
1:05 - Mad Rock Shoutout!!
1:45 - Spain trip and watching PCL
4:44 - Getting into climbing and PT
8:00 - Youth getting into competing more?
9:10 - Are youth climber overtraining?
11:28 - Outcome of growth plate fractures
16:43 - Youth Climbers very rarely get injured
21:28 - Youth climbers should not specialize in climbing
32:03 - What does arthritis look like?
37:00 - Is synovitis a sign of future arthritis?
38:55 - Injuries are actually coming from outdoor climbing....
46:32 - Max Milne's Foot Injury
49:53 - Are injury rates increasing within comp climbers?
52:53 - AUDIENCE Q: Common adult injuries breaking into the comp scene?
59:48 - AUDIENCE Q: Can you even climb with hyper mobility?
1:06:54 - Words of wisdom and where to find Andy
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WEBVTT
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There are changes that go on within high -level
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elite youth climbers within their hands that
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would appear to suggest very early osteoarthritic
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changes. Quite a lot of people who've injured
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themselves and then not been able to go to comps,
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and it hasn't happened in a comp, it's happened
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outdoor climbing. One of the things that really
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helps prevent injury is variety. Welcome to another
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episode of the That's Not Real Climbing Podcast.
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I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce
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my guest for today, Andy McVittie. Andy is a climbing
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PT and this is his second time on the podcast.
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This time he's here with new research to talk
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about why youth climbers are maybe overdoing
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it with the climbing training, what early arthritis
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looks like, and the surprising dangers of outdoor
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climbing when it comes to competition climbers.
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I hope you enjoy this episode with Andy. Please
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pardon this brief intermission, but I'm excited
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to talk about Mad Rock's newest and softest shoe
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entire Mad Rock order. Thank you to Mad Rock
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for helping to sponsor the podcast. Now back
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to the show. I guess, how's your trip been going?
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It sounded a little bit insane last week. Yeah,
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there was some excitement at the start, but yeah,
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it's been okay. The weather here, certainly in
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Europe as a whole, it's been really unstable
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and unpredictable this winter. And so it's been
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a pretty wet trip, but it's the kind of, it's
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on a coastal region, Costa Blanca in Spain. So
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it's that kind of where if it's bad here, then
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maybe, you know, you drive an hour and a half
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or go inland and it might be better. Or if it's
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raining inland, then it'd be okay on the coast,
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that type of thing. So we've maybe not got our
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first choice of crag every day, but we've got
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out. Is it just a climbing trip or you're like
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doing other stuff too? No, just climbing. That's
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all we ever do. Although I have, on this trip
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as well, I've just turned 50. Oh, nice. Happy
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birthday, I guess. Thank you. Yeah, it was a
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few days ago. But my partner's got, we're going
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to take a short break to Naples in Italy, which
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is like the home of pizza, which is my other
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passion outside of climbing. And that will be
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the first non -climbing. okay well glad to hear
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that that all worked out okay and that you're
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you're all good on your trip did you did you
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watch like pcl or anything like that i did watch
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pcl yeah yeah how'd you like it super interesting
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wasn't it we we were like both really grateful
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we're on our trip you know sat there glass of
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wine watching it uh interested to sort of see
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what it was going to be like and that kind of
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thing and and obviously like super super exciting
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in the the men's final wasn't it i i think as
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a as a thing to watch and how they did sort of
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like the you know the camera work and camera
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angles which wasn't always perfect but neither
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is it even in soccer or you know big sports they
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sometimes get things wrong don't they they've
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got to learn and i kept thinking back to the
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the episode that you did where you were talking
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about you know what why did the ifsc or will
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climbing sometimes get these things not quite
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right and why aren't they showing that camera
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angle and what was that caption wrong with that
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kind of thing so i thought so much of the production
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was was fantastic um yeah i think it needs some
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tweaks doesn't it because somebody said to me
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a day or two after that you know if if max hadn't
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pulled off what he did which was you know absolutely
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amazing and a fantastic way to end it it was
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kind of perfect wasn't it but it would have come
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down to who's the quickest to get to hold two
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which might not have been quite as satisfying,
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really. But just exciting, different, isn't it?
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Cool that people are trying these things. And
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I think it's really got something. And I think
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it will develop. And they've said that themselves,
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haven't they? You know, the certain things that
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they want to work on. I think it would be cool.
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Okay. So for those who don't know you, what's
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your background? And how did you get into climbing
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and physical therapy? Okay. Yeah. So, yes, I
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am a full -time. uh climbing physical therapist
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um everybody always thinks that means i then
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just just do fingers and hands or maybe even
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elbows and and shoulders but most climbers or
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a lot of climbers are outdoors kind of people
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they'll run bike hike kayak you know all that
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kind of thing so yeah we do everything or i do
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everything really um i've been a climber now
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for 32 years i think it's a little bit now um
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so that's always been sort of a present throughout
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my adult life um been a coach for sort of like
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17 years i think now and as a physiotherapist
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who climbs you always get people you know can
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you look at this could you can you look at it
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um and so i started one evening a week in a local
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climbing gym um and it just grew over the last
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few years and very soon i had to make a decision
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you know do i go yeah by myself and just work
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for myself and do it full time and yeah i've
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done and you've worked a lot i guess um with
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youth climbers as well yeah you know youth side
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of things has always been kind of a passion of
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mine i've been making some small noises for a
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while saying sort of here in the uk we need to
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get some guidelines in place and bring people
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together and decide what's what and um yeah it's
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it's difficult to get people to focus on that
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to be honest um oh no no no none of this is is
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as a negative you know people are we're still
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developing and improving the say the structure
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of of things in general it's coming it's just
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i want it now you know obviously um yeah so i'm
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going to start some research myself well i have
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just started this year looking at youth comp
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climbers in the uk because what we have so far
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looking at how much are they doing yeah each
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week how many times are they climbing how long
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are those sessions how many injuries are they
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getting how intense are those sessions is it
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all bouldering do they get variety we don't know
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we have one study from canada from a good few
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years ago that surveyed 150, 152, I think it
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was, youth climbers, and one from America a couple
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of years ago where they looked at, I think it
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was 57 or 52. So, so far, out of all the youth
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who are climbing, comp climbers, you know, in
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squats and that type of thing, we've surveyed
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round about 200 of them to see what they're doing.
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And that's not a lot. Yeah, I was going to say,
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it's not a lot. I feel like there are a lot more
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out there. Yeah, and the Canadian research was
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a good few years ago now. Climbing's changed,
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just as we were talking about the PCL. That type
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of thing, climbing is changing every year. Well,
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we'll definitely focus a bit more on youth then.
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Yeah, it's true that maybe now is kind of like
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the first time where there are maybe more youth
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climbers who are... like solely focusing on maybe
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getting into competitions or maybe they were
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inspired from seeing competitions and that's
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kind of actually all they want to do do you feel
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like you see a little bit more of that yeah yeah
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and i don't as a as a climber who's started outdoors
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and and you know and came indoors and i i love
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it i think it's brilliant um there's such a aspect
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with with all sports um such a community that
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they can get involved with you know it it's it's
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a really special thing if it's done well um and
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you know it's a healthy activity in general builds
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confidence all of those things that activity
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and socializing and group activities and stuff
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bring um but yeah it's definitely they what they're
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seeing i suppose you know youtube such like that
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kind of thing is the exciting comp stuff isn't
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it and then that's what they're drawn to i would
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like to go to the climbing gym please and i want
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to try that Through the surveys that you've been
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putting out and looking at, how much are youth
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climbers usually training? Quite a lot. But is
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that inappropriate? We don't really know. But
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I have a bias because the vast majority of climbers
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that I meet are injured. So I get this impression
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that, oh gosh, all climbers are injured all the
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time. and i think for me it's more i've started
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a workshop for coaches called sharing is caring
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um whereby just just giving out a small amount
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of information but say from me to coaches which
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they're within their scope of practice are able
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to pass on to caregivers of you know and to the
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youth climbers themselves about things that we
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need to be looking out for things like that you
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know the growth plate fractures that happen that
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are still happening really commonly um well again
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i have that bias that you know i see quite a
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lot of them i think it is happening yeah yeah
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yeah yeah no definitely um and you know but in
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in any sport yeah i think about my main sport
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when i was uh a youth wasn't climbing particularly
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i didn't come across that until university really
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um was rugby um you know there were a lot of
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injuries in rugby you know it's american football
00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:44.740
without the pads and helmets basically um and
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yeah you know it has that inherent risk within
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it all sport and activity does doesn't it so
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i think my my issue is such is that we don't
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know i may do this research over the next 12
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months and come back and say oh do you know what
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it appears that climbing as a much lower risk
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of injury than other sports but at least we then
00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:14.620
know and maybe the youth can do a bit more yeah
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because most coaches i know are like trying to
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reign them in say like you've done enough now
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stop yeah your fingers are bleeding you know
00:11:21.740 --> 00:11:24.960
you you maybe need to stop now come back in a
00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:28.100
couple of days um yeah they're key they want
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to do more done And so what are the more common
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injuries you see within youth climbers compared
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to adult climbers? I know you mentioned growth
00:11:36.779 --> 00:11:39.820
plate fractures, and I think a lot of people
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who don't necessarily work with youth climbers
00:11:41.539 --> 00:11:45.460
a lot know what that is either. So what are growth
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plate fractures, and then what are the other
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common injuries you see? Okay, yeah. So as we
00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:56.720
go through those growth spurts that we're probably
00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:00.710
all aware of, Literally, your bones are growing
00:12:00.710 --> 00:12:03.009
quite rapidly. They are growing through a period
00:12:03.009 --> 00:12:08.990
of rapid growth. Peak height velocities is one
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of the things that we look at to see whether
00:12:10.909 --> 00:12:14.149
that's happening. But I tend to say to coaches,
00:12:15.029 --> 00:12:19.389
caregivers, whatever, that has that child's trousers
00:12:19.389 --> 00:12:25.090
suddenly got really short? Talk to their parents.
00:12:25.789 --> 00:12:29.389
Have you had to buy? two pairs of shoes um you
00:12:29.389 --> 00:12:31.129
know in the last sort of three months because
00:12:31.129 --> 00:12:32.990
they've grown out of them that kind of thing
00:12:32.990 --> 00:12:35.429
these these are the things that we need to make
00:12:35.429 --> 00:12:37.769
everybody aware of that it's during this time
00:12:37.769 --> 00:12:41.210
that things are a bit more vulnerable so bones
00:12:41.210 --> 00:12:44.789
grow from the ends they have a plate on either
00:12:44.789 --> 00:12:47.070
end where this change is happening and these
00:12:47.070 --> 00:12:49.509
new cells are being laid down and the bone is
00:12:49.509 --> 00:12:52.669
is gaining length through that while they're
00:12:52.669 --> 00:12:57.190
new and have just been laid down and then they're
00:12:57.190 --> 00:13:00.929
not quite as stable or as strong as a fully formed
00:13:00.929 --> 00:13:06.409
denser bone and so we then within the fingers
00:13:06.409 --> 00:13:10.049
take something that's compressive like a crimp
00:13:10.049 --> 00:13:14.009
grip and you're basically pushing a bone against
00:13:14.009 --> 00:13:16.450
a growth plate and it will eventually fracture
00:13:16.450 --> 00:13:21.629
it's a stress fracture not very often done acutely
00:13:21.629 --> 00:13:25.620
you know not worn incident but it will be generally
00:13:25.620 --> 00:13:29.379
a pattern of the climber feeling some pain on
00:13:29.379 --> 00:13:32.779
the back of most normally the middle finger joint
00:13:32.779 --> 00:13:35.460
the middle joint of the middle finger that will
00:13:35.460 --> 00:13:38.919
be sore maybe in a session but then by the time
00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:42.059
they climb again it's not sore anymore but this
00:13:42.059 --> 00:13:45.200
is a stress fracture at that point that's telling
00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:47.120
you that something is happening there not that
00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:49.039
we've necessarily had a fracture straight away
00:13:49.740 --> 00:13:52.860
But that just worsens. The pain starts earlier
00:13:52.860 --> 00:13:55.840
in the session, gets worse. They may have to
00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:58.000
stop a session because it's hurting. You may
00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:02.000
notice that they start missing sessions, you
00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:03.679
know, and just not coming to the planned session
00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:07.120
at all. And it's because of the finger pain.
00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:11.419
And yeah, if it's not, treatment is very simple.
00:14:11.460 --> 00:14:15.279
It is, unfortunately, if it is a fracture or
00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:19.379
on its way to being one, rest is the main. treatment
00:14:19.379 --> 00:14:25.279
um just to allow healing to happen but you know
00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:27.519
we can stop it before it gets to that point because
00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:29.600
that's as we're just touching on before everything
00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:32.620
that youth climbers get out of climbing you know
00:14:32.620 --> 00:14:35.919
even if they're mad into comps let's to be brutally
00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:39.279
frank not all of them are going to be yanya or
00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:42.620
toby or erin as it is here in the uk you know
00:14:42.620 --> 00:14:45.820
they're the absolute elite of the elite they're
00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:49.860
amazing um I was always passionate about building
00:14:49.860 --> 00:14:54.200
climbers for life, you know, that find a tribe,
00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:56.639
a community, something that they love and that
00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:59.139
they can continue doing through their life. And
00:14:59.139 --> 00:15:03.899
this can cause long lasting issues with fingers,
00:15:04.100 --> 00:15:06.980
you know, that will really bring on early onset
00:15:06.980 --> 00:15:10.960
arthritis and that type of thing if it's not
00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:14.620
treated well. Is there like a career ending injury?
00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:18.460
I mean, career ending. Certainly can. As a kid,
00:15:18.620 --> 00:15:22.940
but. Yeah. It will take you out for a good few
00:15:22.940 --> 00:15:26.320
weeks, you know, to months if you've got a bad
00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.460
one that needs to rest and then you need to rebuild
00:15:28.460 --> 00:15:31.000
yourself back up to where you used to be. So
00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.919
if treated, if identified and treated at the
00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:39.340
appropriate time, then no. If not, I certainly
00:15:39.340 --> 00:15:43.019
know. quite a few you know who used to be um
00:15:43.019 --> 00:15:47.820
high level competitive um youth climbers who
00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:51.899
you know we now speak to them and what the backstory
00:15:51.899 --> 00:15:54.480
was and why is your finger that shape you know
00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:56.519
why doesn't your finger straighten anymore why
00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:00.299
is it a bit wonky um and the backstory they talk
00:16:00.299 --> 00:16:03.659
about really fits a growth plate fracture and
00:16:03.659 --> 00:16:07.179
for those people it you know it's painful now
00:16:07.179 --> 00:16:09.970
they're in their 20s and it and it hurts to climb
00:16:09.970 --> 00:16:14.450
um what that will be in you know like myself
00:16:14.450 --> 00:16:17.690
after 30 odd years of climbing we well we don't
00:16:17.690 --> 00:16:21.309
know yet so it really is like immediately you'll
00:16:21.309 --> 00:16:23.789
you'll kind of see the effects of it yeah yeah
00:16:23.789 --> 00:16:28.250
it hurts sure yeah okay yeah and what you essentially
00:16:28.250 --> 00:16:32.309
get is is a a mal -aligned joint or you you can
00:16:32.309 --> 00:16:35.389
end up with a mal -aligned joint so a joint that's
00:16:35.389 --> 00:16:39.200
wonky And so that isn't getting loaded how it's
00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:42.659
supposed to. And over time, that will increase
00:16:42.659 --> 00:16:46.600
wear and such like. What other big injuries do
00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:50.039
you usually see in the youth scene? Youth very
00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:54.740
rarely get injured. I don't know, I've started
00:16:54.740 --> 00:16:56.600
this off saying, are they getting injured? What
00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:02.960
do we know about it? But they can recover an
00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:05.440
awful lot quicker. then you know as especially
00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:07.079
as they're going through these you know growth
00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:09.539
phases and they're growing they're just proliferating
00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:11.940
cells all over the place so you know that they
00:17:11.940 --> 00:17:16.980
can recover super super fast um there's the usuals
00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:21.619
um you do see you know shoulder problems and
00:17:21.619 --> 00:17:23.559
that kind of thing what we don't tend to see
00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:26.500
i suppose is like your tendon problems you know
00:17:26.500 --> 00:17:28.960
your golfer's elbow tennis elbow that kind of
00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:32.910
thing these real chronic um overuse type injuries
00:17:32.910 --> 00:17:36.049
but you will get yeah you know finger issues
00:17:36.049 --> 00:17:44.109
um and probably more acute um than chronic i
00:17:44.109 --> 00:17:46.829
know you also mentioned a little bit about the
00:17:46.829 --> 00:17:51.069
transition from youth to senior um i guess first
00:17:51.069 --> 00:17:53.150
of all there is like kind of a setting difference
00:17:53.150 --> 00:17:55.950
between youth comps versus senior comps do you
00:17:55.950 --> 00:17:58.490
see like big differences there in terms of body
00:17:58.490 --> 00:18:01.640
movement and how they use their yeah different
00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:04.619
muscles and yeah so this has been interesting
00:18:04.619 --> 00:18:08.539
and what sparked this often and what i yeah initially
00:18:08.539 --> 00:18:11.920
spoke to yourself about was this um study on
00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:15.279
in from from last year where they looked at the
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.160
helsinki youth world championships and the soul
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:21.059
world championships and they're doing these the
00:18:21.059 --> 00:18:26.299
um this person is matthias i do hope i've i've
00:18:26.299 --> 00:18:29.960
said that correctly apologies if not really detailed
00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:35.559
statistical look at wall angles hold types what
00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:38.539
it takes to get to the zones you know it was
00:18:38.539 --> 00:18:41.420
it a technical move was it a physical move is
00:18:41.420 --> 00:18:44.400
the zone hold a pinch or a crimp and so that
00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:46.819
some things that came out were that the youth
00:18:46.819 --> 00:18:51.480
athletes for example tried harder for longer
00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:55.180
yeah they took more attempts to get boulder problems
00:18:56.509 --> 00:18:59.210
generally two more attempts I think it was off
00:18:59.210 --> 00:19:02.710
the top of my head between you know on each boulder
00:19:02.710 --> 00:19:06.089
now that adds up doesn't it you know that's the
00:19:06.089 --> 00:19:10.609
significant amount of load we all see you know
00:19:10.609 --> 00:19:13.869
and it's spoken about a lot with commentators
00:19:13.869 --> 00:19:16.849
isn't it that they'll say oh we've you know such
00:19:16.849 --> 00:19:20.960
and such flashed the problem They've only climbed
00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:23.500
once. It took 30 seconds. They've effectively
00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:26.680
got three and a half minutes of rest longer than
00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:28.920
the other person. And they're off the mats and
00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:32.319
sat out in the back in isolation again. So the
00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:35.900
youth were, yeah, in some ways getting more load
00:19:35.900 --> 00:19:41.440
in that. 50 % roughly of the athletes who reached
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:44.559
the semifinals in the Youth World Championships
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:50.220
had Senior World Cup. experience in the same
00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:54.859
season so are they i'm sure this is being managed
00:19:54.859 --> 00:19:57.380
but this is the kind of thinking that that i'm
00:19:57.380 --> 00:20:00.660
i'm doing on this you know are they doing both
00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:05.799
is that quite a lot you know have has somebody
00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:08.980
done pretty much a full world cup season and
00:20:08.980 --> 00:20:11.940
then stuck a youth world cup in and then maybe
00:20:11.940 --> 00:20:14.940
gone even to the senior world cup as well as
00:20:14.940 --> 00:20:19.750
a as an under 19 and everything going back to
00:20:19.750 --> 00:20:22.390
the start saying you know this information will
00:20:22.390 --> 00:20:27.750
be useful for coaches and such like to more efficient
00:20:27.750 --> 00:20:32.529
developmental pathways and we have these youth
00:20:32.529 --> 00:20:34.789
development models long -term athlete development
00:20:34.789 --> 00:20:37.269
models all this kind of thing these structures
00:20:37.269 --> 00:20:41.369
I was touched on earlier what that is is funneling
00:20:41.369 --> 00:20:44.990
we'd start off with 10 ,000 climbers we create
00:20:44.990 --> 00:20:48.720
or not create but we end up with one toby roberts
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.039
yeah we identify talent we bring these people
00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:55.740
in we work them really hard to achieve their
00:20:55.740 --> 00:20:58.359
potential and such that and that's you know that
00:20:58.359 --> 00:21:02.740
that sport no criticism from me in that way what
00:21:02.740 --> 00:21:06.140
happens to all the ones who don't make it because
00:21:06.140 --> 00:21:11.160
i went on the ifsc world climbing website last
00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:14.099
night actually and had a look through the names
00:21:14.099 --> 00:21:17.130
of the people that were reaching the the finals
00:21:17.130 --> 00:21:20.190
or won the finals of the youth world of world
00:21:20.190 --> 00:21:22.529
championships and that kind of thing there's
00:21:22.529 --> 00:21:25.569
not a lot of them i sort of recognized and thought
00:21:25.569 --> 00:21:29.690
oh yeah they're now an international competitor
00:21:29.690 --> 00:21:34.829
you know we know early specialization is generally
00:21:34.829 --> 00:21:37.789
not a good thing you mean like specifically within
00:21:37.789 --> 00:21:41.289
climbing or within all sport yeah within all
00:21:41.289 --> 00:21:47.710
sport it's recognized as uh you may well become
00:21:47.710 --> 00:21:51.990
very proficient at that one sport that you're
00:21:51.990 --> 00:21:55.369
doing but if when it comes to time to mature
00:21:55.369 --> 00:22:00.569
your body doesn't fit the profile if that makes
00:22:00.569 --> 00:22:04.690
sense then you may not you know you might be
00:22:04.690 --> 00:22:08.130
fantastic as a youth athlete but not actually
00:22:08.130 --> 00:22:11.849
develop into such a uh genetically gifted because
00:22:11.849 --> 00:22:13.869
if we're talking you know the toby roberts the
00:22:13.869 --> 00:22:17.890
errands you know that type of thing then on top
00:22:17.890 --> 00:22:20.569
of all their hard work dedication not taking
00:22:20.569 --> 00:22:22.849
anything away from that is you know they've got
00:22:22.849 --> 00:22:25.529
the genetics as well so yeah there's a huge dropout
00:22:25.529 --> 00:22:29.650
or can be a huge dropout along with early specialization
00:22:29.650 --> 00:22:32.910
and also more injury because they're only doing
00:22:32.910 --> 00:22:39.690
one activity and it's repetitive and They don't
00:22:39.690 --> 00:22:42.710
develop movement patterns and spatial awareness
00:22:42.710 --> 00:22:45.109
from something like, I don't know, playing soccer
00:22:45.109 --> 00:22:49.490
or volleyball or something that's just got different,
00:22:49.589 --> 00:22:52.109
lots of lateral movement, push, jump, sprint
00:22:52.109 --> 00:22:54.829
forward, sprint back. And then we look at what
00:22:54.829 --> 00:22:57.450
we've got going on on the wall now with all the
00:22:57.450 --> 00:23:00.089
amazing coordination moves and that kind of thing.
00:23:00.509 --> 00:23:03.109
They need that. I don't know if you want to make
00:23:03.109 --> 00:23:05.390
a general recommendation there, but I guess then
00:23:05.390 --> 00:23:08.039
is the... Is the recommendation kind of like
00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:12.380
for most youth athletes, they shouldn't focus
00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:15.759
solely on climbing because maybe their bodies
00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:19.160
aren't like meant to climb long term? Is that
00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:21.779
kind of what you're saying? Well, there's few
00:23:21.779 --> 00:23:25.440
things that I generally feel confident enough
00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:28.480
to say yes or no on. I'll always qualify things
00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:30.859
as some kind of a gray area of what about this
00:23:30.859 --> 00:23:34.569
and what about that. But in this, yes. that there's
00:23:34.569 --> 00:23:38.630
just so much research that says when you're developing
00:23:38.630 --> 00:23:41.549
growing as an athlete as a person as you know
00:23:41.549 --> 00:23:44.549
as a child you should experience lots and lots
00:23:44.549 --> 00:23:46.910
of different things and you should maybe have
00:23:46.910 --> 00:23:49.589
an on season and an off season and you should
00:23:49.589 --> 00:23:51.710
be doing different things now for a lot of people
00:23:51.710 --> 00:23:55.609
um you know what you might do at school could
00:23:55.609 --> 00:23:58.150
be enough you know if you're climbing and training
00:23:58.150 --> 00:24:01.190
outside of school and in school you have physical
00:24:01.190 --> 00:24:05.240
education and you you're playing soccer you're
00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:08.220
playing basketball you're playing you know different
00:24:08.220 --> 00:24:11.160
things a couple of times a week that you know
00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.380
that's enough that's okay um but i also see i
00:24:15.380 --> 00:24:19.700
had a um patient a couple of months ago again
00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:22.099
another one that sort of sticks in my mind young
00:24:22.099 --> 00:24:26.059
uh male youth climber was getting the results
00:24:26.059 --> 00:24:29.640
in competitions and he his dad asked if i still
00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:33.549
coached Because he'd stepped away from a squad
00:24:33.549 --> 00:24:37.029
and that was because he was getting pressured
00:24:37.029 --> 00:24:39.210
and being told that he wasn't committed enough
00:24:39.210 --> 00:24:42.349
and he wasn't coming enough times a week and
00:24:42.349 --> 00:24:45.369
he wasn't doing enough and this, that and the
00:24:45.369 --> 00:24:50.890
other. But he obviously loved climbing, wanted
00:24:50.890 --> 00:24:53.430
to do other things as well though with it. The
00:24:53.430 --> 00:24:58.029
coach had had a, what we say, a heated debate,
00:24:58.190 --> 00:25:02.599
a strong discussion. um between the parents and
00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:05.720
and the coach um and yeah basically said that
00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:08.400
they need to show more commitment or they're
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:12.440
not welcome on the team and that's like ah man
00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:15.319
because that could have put that person off from
00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:17.880
from climbing for life if nothing else couldn't
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:20.539
it or they go the other way and start just only
00:25:20.539 --> 00:25:24.599
doing climbing and as much as i love climbing
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.029
there is you know there are other things what
00:25:27.029 --> 00:25:29.609
about for like the youth climbers who want to
00:25:29.609 --> 00:25:34.470
be like the next toby or aaron yeah and i'm sure
00:25:34.470 --> 00:25:39.529
but i'm not sure but i you know you look at the
00:25:39.529 --> 00:25:44.430
the the top climbers both compound and outdoors
00:25:44.430 --> 00:25:50.569
they probably did just climb you know and so
00:25:50.569 --> 00:25:52.349
that but they're all what if you think you're
00:25:52.349 --> 00:25:55.799
one of them yeah yeah yeah and you might be and
00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:58.039
and so you know this is the guidance that we
00:25:58.039 --> 00:26:00.400
need isn't it because what do we do when we find
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.579
this one intergenerational talent that you know
00:26:03.579 --> 00:26:05.920
that's like oh my gosh this person is going to
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:08.660
set the climbing world on fire or that so you
00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:12.019
know um gosh i've forgotten his name now uh 16
00:26:12.019 --> 00:26:15.599
year old who climbed 9a boulder out outdoors
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:18.259
last week or the other week you know this kind
00:26:18.259 --> 00:26:21.579
of thing is is going on and he's 16. so should
00:26:21.579 --> 00:26:24.779
we treat him the same as other 16 year olds no
00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:29.339
um that tips in then into like the under 17 under
00:26:29.339 --> 00:26:32.940
19 athlete side of things in in the world cups
00:26:32.940 --> 00:26:37.640
um and the world championships rather um that's
00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:39.980
brilliant they've bumped the age up from 16 to
00:26:39.980 --> 00:26:43.640
17 just as a recognition that a level of physical
00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:48.099
maturity is required but there's outliers a young
00:26:48.099 --> 00:26:54.160
man i used to um coach is now like flashing v11
00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:57.259
that kind of thing and is about six foot two
00:26:57.259 --> 00:27:00.700
um he was the smallest in his year at school
00:27:00.700 --> 00:27:04.400
every year and was you know sadly teased about
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:06.480
it a bit because he was distinctly smaller than
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:10.559
than everybody else until he was about 16. he
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:15.180
was yeah he was a really late developer um then
00:27:15.180 --> 00:27:17.859
you get early developers then you get people
00:27:17.859 --> 00:27:21.660
who were just you know said that that young guy
00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:26.180
hasn't got 20 years of hard training behind him
00:27:26.180 --> 00:27:28.619
he can't have he's only 16 and yet he's developed
00:27:28.619 --> 00:27:30.519
the finger strength and the movement and the
00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:32.839
skills you know and everything to to pull on
00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:38.700
you know folder 9a halt so he is different but
00:27:38.700 --> 00:27:42.619
that needs to work both ways doesn't it that
00:27:42.619 --> 00:27:44.359
you need to recognise that some people are going
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:47.940
to develop later and need to be treated slightly
00:27:47.940 --> 00:27:50.900
differently. And they need to be educated about
00:27:50.900 --> 00:27:54.819
that. That's with the young guy I'm thinking
00:27:54.819 --> 00:27:57.660
about. You know, we used to speak about it reasonably
00:27:57.660 --> 00:28:00.119
regularly. It was hard for him, definitely. It
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:02.839
was tough. But we spoke with parents as well
00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:04.599
and that kind of thing. You know, it's like your
00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:08.180
time will come. And he now, you know, he wins.
00:28:08.670 --> 00:28:11.089
local comps and that kind of thing and he's still
00:28:11.089 --> 00:28:13.890
climbing this is the thing you know for me um
00:28:13.890 --> 00:28:16.230
that we got through that it wasn't all about
00:28:16.230 --> 00:28:19.029
his results on the day we didn't always pull
00:28:19.029 --> 00:28:21.549
the oh it's not your fault you're too short card
00:28:21.549 --> 00:28:24.430
you know we worked around it and talked around
00:28:24.430 --> 00:28:27.690
it and it's just having that that awareness that
00:28:27.690 --> 00:28:31.549
knowledge for coaches um and i'm sure as i say
00:28:31.549 --> 00:28:34.069
by the time we get to you know international
00:28:34.069 --> 00:28:36.150
level and national level and that kind of thing
00:28:36.150 --> 00:28:39.730
that's there but what funnels into that are these
00:28:39.730 --> 00:28:42.690
now thousands of coaches that there are out there
00:28:42.690 --> 00:28:48.250
yeah um yeah working with thousands and thousands
00:28:48.250 --> 00:28:50.730
of kids i mean you mentioned like tending to
00:28:50.730 --> 00:28:53.250
not see too many injuries within youth climbers
00:28:53.250 --> 00:28:55.589
is it kind of like if you are a youth climber
00:28:55.589 --> 00:28:58.250
and you do get like a crazy injury like a growth
00:28:58.250 --> 00:29:03.049
plate fracture some other kind of um like bigger
00:29:03.049 --> 00:29:05.509
injury other than just like oh this hurts a little
00:29:05.509 --> 00:29:09.130
bit is it kind of like a sign that this isn't
00:29:09.130 --> 00:29:12.990
for you in that way in the least depressing way
00:29:12.990 --> 00:29:17.950
possible no no definitely not no um you know
00:29:17.950 --> 00:29:20.930
injuries are about load manage or the injuries
00:29:20.930 --> 00:29:23.549
such as that are about load management there's
00:29:23.549 --> 00:29:26.789
certainly in adults we know that over 90 of the
00:29:26.789 --> 00:29:30.309
the injuries that occur are overuse or chronic
00:29:30.309 --> 00:29:34.470
injuries yeah and that's load management that's
00:29:34.470 --> 00:29:38.549
that individual doing too much too often if you
00:29:38.549 --> 00:29:43.509
had somebody that was displaying a you know an
00:29:43.509 --> 00:29:47.450
unusual amount of say joint related injuries
00:29:47.450 --> 00:29:52.029
going off then you know again as a coach you
00:29:52.029 --> 00:29:55.910
need to spot that and be aware of that and then
00:29:55.910 --> 00:29:59.039
do something about it and this is what this sharing
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:01.500
is caring kind of thing is about is it's having
00:30:01.500 --> 00:30:05.819
these links it's having the that's unusual I'll
00:30:05.819 --> 00:30:09.180
speak to Andy about that yeah and then Andy might
00:30:09.180 --> 00:30:12.039
say no that all sounds totally fine you know
00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:13.819
look at this that the other but that you know
00:30:13.819 --> 00:30:16.359
all sounds good or he might say that sounds like
00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:18.779
somebody potentially might have a hypermobility
00:30:18.779 --> 00:30:21.279
syndrome and we could do with getting that checked
00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:25.859
out so yes that person may need you know some
00:30:25.859 --> 00:30:32.079
extra but yeah i think it'd be yeah just because
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:34.019
you've got a growth plate fracture you wouldn't
00:30:34.019 --> 00:30:38.900
uh there's certainly some high level pro climbers
00:30:38.900 --> 00:30:41.700
that when i because i because i do because i'm
00:30:41.700 --> 00:30:44.259
a bit sad when i zoom in on their hands and things
00:30:44.259 --> 00:30:48.599
in photos and videos i look at and i think yeah
00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:53.190
you know oh you can see it really Yeah, there's
00:30:53.190 --> 00:30:55.630
some, I obviously won't mention who, but yeah,
00:30:55.690 --> 00:30:57.230
some that you look at and you think, oh, wow,
00:30:57.309 --> 00:31:00.789
that's more than sort of like adaptation potentially,
00:31:01.009 --> 00:31:04.230
more than not. And we do know, for example, that
00:31:04.230 --> 00:31:06.950
if you've ever heard of Volker Schoffel, who's
00:31:06.950 --> 00:31:12.269
a German orthopedic surgeon who specialises in
00:31:12.269 --> 00:31:15.549
climbing injuries, he's probably the person that's
00:31:15.549 --> 00:31:18.910
driven climbing research as far as injuries goes.
00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:24.799
the most and you know they he's put information
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:29.779
out there definitely that um there are changes
00:31:29.779 --> 00:31:33.539
that go on within high -level elite youth climbers
00:31:33.539 --> 00:31:36.640
within their hands that would appear to suggest
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:41.200
you know very early osteoarthritic changes within
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:43.799
the hands now that's not quite as disastrous
00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:48.940
as it sounds but where's that going to end up
00:31:49.609 --> 00:31:53.029
um we don't know because we've not had a generation
00:31:53.029 --> 00:31:55.849
who you know started climbing super hard at the
00:31:55.849 --> 00:31:59.829
age of four before yeah you know and they've
00:31:59.829 --> 00:32:04.150
just always climbed um so yeah we don't we don't
00:32:04.150 --> 00:32:07.029
really know i guess sort of a sidebar i don't
00:32:07.029 --> 00:32:10.589
really know what arthritis in the hands looks
00:32:10.589 --> 00:32:13.329
like and i am like personally worried that that'll
00:32:13.329 --> 00:32:16.009
happen just because i mean i always have like
00:32:16.009 --> 00:32:19.769
really bad um like around the like the middle
00:32:19.769 --> 00:32:23.950
joints, like the pain there. And I mean, it kind
00:32:23.950 --> 00:32:27.769
of sounds like that's what it is. So I'm like,
00:32:27.869 --> 00:32:30.910
well, do I already have that? Like, is that just
00:32:30.910 --> 00:32:33.170
something that comes with climbing? Like, I don't
00:32:33.170 --> 00:32:35.970
know. Okay. So as a general, another thing that
00:32:35.970 --> 00:32:40.329
is totally unconnected to the fact that we were
00:32:40.329 --> 00:32:43.650
discussing earlier that I've just turned 50 and
00:32:43.650 --> 00:32:46.309
it's nothing to do with that. Another workshop
00:32:46.309 --> 00:32:50.349
I do is. it's called aging with optimism yeah
00:32:50.349 --> 00:32:53.549
and and it's it's about looking at a few of these
00:32:53.549 --> 00:32:56.430
things you know not necessarily busting myths
00:32:56.430 --> 00:32:59.109
or anything super exciting like that but educating
00:32:59.109 --> 00:33:03.230
people around what aging actually is what is
00:33:03.230 --> 00:33:05.710
good for us what may not be too much you know
00:33:05.710 --> 00:33:09.549
that that type of thing and so super often gets
00:33:09.549 --> 00:33:12.200
asked what about you know my fingers arthritis
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:15.099
that kind of thing real quick if you love comp
00:33:15.099 --> 00:33:17.099
climbing and want to join a community who has
00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:19.819
the same level of psych you do check out my comp
00:33:19.819 --> 00:33:22.480
climbing discord it's free to join and we have
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.440
live discussions during comps our own fantasy
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:28.539
climbing leagues and general chat about all things
00:33:28.539 --> 00:33:32.220
climbing related even outdoor climbing link is
00:33:32.220 --> 00:33:35.299
in the description now back to the show so when
00:33:35.299 --> 00:33:40.230
we look at runners marathon runners so people
00:33:40.230 --> 00:33:43.289
who are going to wear their knees out yeah is
00:33:43.289 --> 00:33:47.289
what people think if you're a recreational level
00:33:47.289 --> 00:33:51.569
marathon runner then you will have more cartilage
00:33:51.569 --> 00:33:54.950
in your knee usually than somebody who doesn't
00:33:54.950 --> 00:34:00.490
run yeah so if you use your fingers sensibly
00:34:00.490 --> 00:34:04.029
and build up over time and are consistent with
00:34:04.029 --> 00:34:08.329
what you do with them you will get robust fingers
00:34:08.329 --> 00:34:12.929
you may get some enlarging of bones yeah and
00:34:12.929 --> 00:34:16.710
joint knuckles can enlarge just because they're
00:34:16.710 --> 00:34:19.449
being loaded that will happen that's the body's
00:34:19.449 --> 00:34:22.610
response that bone is getting loaded heavily
00:34:22.610 --> 00:34:25.730
a lot we need to reinforce it so that type of
00:34:25.730 --> 00:34:27.690
thing can happen connective tissue and such like
00:34:27.690 --> 00:34:31.710
grows as well and it becomes more dense and more
00:34:31.710 --> 00:34:37.650
robust um elite marathon runners I believe are
00:34:37.650 --> 00:34:42.789
something like four times more likely to need
00:34:42.789 --> 00:34:45.909
a knee replacement than people who don't run.
00:34:46.849 --> 00:34:51.349
So there's this using your fingers a lot, but
00:34:51.349 --> 00:34:54.809
allowing recovery sensibly, variation of load,
00:34:54.969 --> 00:34:56.750
different grip types, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:34:56.949 --> 00:35:02.690
And then there's elite level. And elite athletes
00:35:02.690 --> 00:35:07.559
push themselves beyond what? they probably should
00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:10.320
to be honest you know in their drive to to get
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:14.639
better and you know do more and yeah win essentially
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:19.579
and compete isn't it um so for most of us just
00:35:19.579 --> 00:35:23.659
climbing if we're doing it in a thought out way
00:35:23.659 --> 00:35:28.539
and allowing recovery um i'm responding early
00:35:28.539 --> 00:35:33.250
to like my middle fingers always hurt after a
00:35:33.250 --> 00:35:36.210
climbing session yeah that that that's you know
00:35:36.210 --> 00:35:38.670
a little signal to you isn't it that maybe you
00:35:38.670 --> 00:35:40.550
could do with getting that checked out and finding
00:35:40.550 --> 00:35:43.989
out what's going on which you know if that's
00:35:43.989 --> 00:35:46.469
been going on for a short time by which i mean
00:35:46.469 --> 00:35:49.730
a few weeks or months even it's often people
00:35:49.730 --> 00:35:52.250
will come to me it's not unusual and they'll
00:35:52.250 --> 00:35:54.090
be like this has been hurting for about a year
00:35:54.090 --> 00:36:00.360
you know um then yeah that's not it's highly
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:02.460
unlikely to be you know early onset arthritis
00:36:02.460 --> 00:36:05.900
at that point that's the precursors the things
00:36:05.900 --> 00:36:08.320
that can happen that if we don't address it and
00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:10.440
don't look at it and don't find out what's going
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:14.639
on yeah then that potentially could speed up
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:17.340
the process of arthritis but arthritis yeah on
00:36:17.340 --> 00:36:20.420
that note is is happening in all of us every
00:36:20.420 --> 00:36:23.400
day it's it's just part of the aging process
00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:27.699
as our systems get less efficient throughout
00:36:27.699 --> 00:36:31.440
the whole body then so do our joints if you like
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:34.719
you know that that process of the the response
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:38.780
of cartilage to load becomes a little less efficient
00:36:38.780 --> 00:36:44.440
you know as we age um yeah you know that all
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:49.739
said i know so many older climbers now who were
00:36:49.739 --> 00:36:54.079
you know being sensible about what they do approaching
00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:58.059
training building on their experience and their
00:36:58.059 --> 00:37:00.840
knowledge and what they've built up over decades
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:03.639
and still cranking really hard. I think I was
00:37:03.639 --> 00:37:07.820
just asking like what arthritis actually feels
00:37:07.820 --> 00:37:11.159
like. Because I mean, I've had synovitis for
00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:12.980
years and I know people who've had it for years.
00:37:13.219 --> 00:37:16.619
And so my fingers hurt all the time for like
00:37:16.619 --> 00:37:20.400
years. And so I'm like, is that the same thing?
00:37:20.780 --> 00:37:25.400
So synovitis is one of those precursors. you
00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:28.960
know the joint is becoming irritated and it's
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:31.980
the inflammatory chemicals and the inflammatory
00:37:31.980 --> 00:37:35.559
response from the joint being irritated within
00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:40.940
the joint capsule that is it's it's a negative
00:37:40.940 --> 00:37:46.420
effect if you like on the joint and so instead
00:37:46.420 --> 00:37:50.260
of the cartilage recovering and replenishing
00:37:50.260 --> 00:37:53.360
itself and re -oiling itself and filling itself
00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:55.840
with all its nutrients and such like again that
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:58.619
doesn't quite happen by the time you go climbing
00:37:58.619 --> 00:38:02.079
on it again so yes you know if you've been suffering
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:07.199
some sign of itis in fingers for years then that's
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:10.099
something i would say that you need to do something
00:38:10.099 --> 00:38:15.719
about if you you know but it's also really really
00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:18.380
common because often it's not enough to stop
00:38:18.380 --> 00:38:22.219
us you know it might be sore after a session
00:38:22.219 --> 00:38:24.079
and you're like oh you know the next morning
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:26.699
you wake up you know oh blimey but then by the
00:38:26.699 --> 00:38:28.539
time you've had your morning coffee and you've
00:38:28.539 --> 00:38:31.400
got into the day it's settled it feels okay and
00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:34.300
then you can climb again the next time and i
00:38:34.300 --> 00:38:37.179
think it's just part of human nature that something's
00:38:37.179 --> 00:38:40.059
got to become quite a big priority for people
00:38:40.059 --> 00:38:44.920
to take time and money out of their their life
00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:49.440
you know to come and get help about it So, yeah,
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:53.340
as much as I love seeing people early with things,
00:38:53.460 --> 00:38:56.340
I do also understand why that doesn't happen
00:38:56.340 --> 00:38:59.059
very often. And so then I guess in terms of injuries
00:38:59.059 --> 00:39:02.119
that you had seen for climbers transitioning
00:39:02.119 --> 00:39:05.800
from youth to senior in the comp circuit, what
00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:07.940
would you say that people should watch out for?
00:39:08.300 --> 00:39:13.380
Overuse. It's overtraining, isn't it? It's not
00:39:13.380 --> 00:39:17.119
so much in the comps. We've spoken before, haven't
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:21.829
we, about... you know what injuries in comps
00:39:21.829 --> 00:39:26.909
getting you know pretty rare no real like horrendous
00:39:26.909 --> 00:39:29.489
falls you know there's the rules in now aren't
00:39:29.489 --> 00:39:31.590
there about you know downward dyno type things
00:39:31.590 --> 00:39:35.989
and that kind of stuff um so the injuries really
00:39:35.989 --> 00:39:43.690
happen not in a comp so much yeah um it's it's
00:39:43.690 --> 00:39:46.429
more within the training and the you know the
00:39:46.429 --> 00:39:50.300
general day -to -day one that i do see quite
00:39:50.300 --> 00:39:52.639
a lot that's worth sort of putting out there
00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:57.159
in general um but does happen to comp climbers
00:39:57.159 --> 00:40:03.539
who are very capable you know incredibly strong
00:40:03.539 --> 00:40:08.519
able to perform outdoors is is bouldering injuries
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:13.619
of like not stacking maps properly turning an
00:40:13.619 --> 00:40:17.139
ankle on mats that kind of thing now again that
00:40:17.139 --> 00:40:20.260
kind of thing can just happen you know that you
00:40:20.260 --> 00:40:22.460
could have stacked everything totally okay blah
00:40:22.460 --> 00:40:24.679
blah blah something you know slightly unforeseen
00:40:24.679 --> 00:40:29.800
has happened and accidents do happen um but if
00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:33.199
what tends to happen around about certainly in
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:38.139
the uk uh the sort of 17 year old when they start
00:40:38.139 --> 00:40:40.960
to drive And then suddenly they've got access
00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:43.840
to be able to maybe get outdoors and go and have
00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:46.960
a boulder outdoors and that type of thing. And
00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:51.340
then getting injured on an outdoor climbing day,
00:40:51.500 --> 00:40:55.619
you know, a bad ankle sprain can keep you out
00:40:55.619 --> 00:40:59.980
longer than a growth plate fracture. Yeah. Yeah.
00:41:00.059 --> 00:41:06.099
So, yeah, these injuries tend to be outside of
00:41:06.099 --> 00:41:08.309
the comp arena. Yeah, let's get into that a bit.
00:41:08.369 --> 00:41:11.409
So you're starting to actually see a lot more
00:41:11.409 --> 00:41:15.230
for like youth comp athletes. You're starting
00:41:15.230 --> 00:41:18.030
to see a lot more like outdoor related injuries
00:41:18.030 --> 00:41:20.989
rather than like comp related injuries. Yeah,
00:41:20.989 --> 00:41:25.869
I think a lot of acute injuries do tend to be
00:41:25.869 --> 00:41:27.949
your, you know, your ankle sprain, that type
00:41:27.949 --> 00:41:30.369
of thing, you know, or fall related injuries.
00:41:30.510 --> 00:41:35.070
And I was thinking about this. And if you've
00:41:35.070 --> 00:41:38.579
spent your entire time from you know a young
00:41:38.579 --> 00:41:41.139
age thousands and thousands and thousands of
00:41:41.139 --> 00:41:43.539
falls probably from all sorts of different angles
00:41:43.539 --> 00:41:46.019
you should be like you know they're super adapted
00:41:46.019 --> 00:41:48.400
to that that's how these athletes can can fall
00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:51.199
off and you know we all go oh and and yet they
00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:54.079
pull off the landing and they're okay um because
00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:56.039
yeah they're just so attuned to it they've practiced
00:41:56.039 --> 00:42:00.780
it's a skill for them but that's on a mat that
00:42:00.780 --> 00:42:06.400
has a fixed kind of density It's level, obviously.
00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:09.380
It's always in the same place, if that makes
00:42:09.380 --> 00:42:13.679
sense. You know where you are and you know where
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:16.639
the mat is. And then you go outside and you've
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:20.420
got an uneven level. The ground might be sloping
00:42:20.420 --> 00:42:22.840
away, so you're landing on one leg more than
00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:26.199
the other. Or you may build it up, but you've
00:42:26.199 --> 00:42:29.250
got your friend's really old pad. on the top
00:42:29.250 --> 00:42:31.670
that's got really soft foaming and you've got
00:42:31.670 --> 00:42:33.550
your brand new one because you just started going
00:42:33.550 --> 00:42:35.610
outdoor bouldering and that's really firm and
00:42:35.610 --> 00:42:39.269
hard one leg lands on either you know these are
00:42:39.269 --> 00:42:42.369
small things but they can have big effects now
00:42:42.369 --> 00:42:45.190
you know for somebody to be out for a few weeks
00:42:45.190 --> 00:42:49.530
of climbing when you're 50 i i can be a bit more
00:42:49.530 --> 00:42:52.170
philosophical about that and like okay that's
00:42:52.170 --> 00:42:55.190
a tiny tiny part of my climbing life and climbing
00:42:55.190 --> 00:42:59.320
career but for a 17 year old keep using this
00:42:59.320 --> 00:43:00.980
example as somebody that's getting out there
00:43:00.980 --> 00:43:04.039
and able to climb outdoors that's massive especially
00:43:04.039 --> 00:43:07.059
if it's comp season you know that kind of thing
00:43:07.059 --> 00:43:10.599
um yeah you know it can be really really bad
00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:15.239
effect for physically mentally you know all of
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:18.760
that side of things and it sees small small things
00:43:18.760 --> 00:43:22.440
so yeah if you're if you're not just youth really
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:24.760
if you're generally an indoor climber and you're
00:43:24.760 --> 00:43:28.699
going outdoor bouldering yeah it's Not the safest.
00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:31.639
Be careful. Yeah, especially when you're used
00:43:31.639 --> 00:43:34.340
to those big falls during comps. I mean, you
00:43:34.340 --> 00:43:36.659
see some crazy falls during comps and then they
00:43:36.659 --> 00:43:40.860
roll all the way out, even past the mat in comps
00:43:40.860 --> 00:43:43.860
sometimes. And if you and your friend have gone
00:43:43.860 --> 00:43:46.059
climbing and you've got one bouldering pad each
00:43:46.059 --> 00:43:47.820
because that's all you've been able to afford
00:43:47.820 --> 00:43:51.360
and that's all you've got, then that's not that
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:53.300
big a landing area. You're probably not going
00:43:53.300 --> 00:43:55.500
to be able to roll. You're probably not going
00:43:55.500 --> 00:43:59.789
to tumble. and take a spin yeah and even spotting
00:43:59.789 --> 00:44:02.570
you know that they're often not used to being
00:44:02.570 --> 00:44:07.369
spotted or spotting other people um it used to
00:44:07.369 --> 00:44:10.489
be quite common indoors i'd very rarely see it
00:44:10.489 --> 00:44:13.550
now i think it's kind of like almost discouraged
00:44:13.550 --> 00:44:16.789
to spot indoors it's kind of like why yeah i
00:44:16.789 --> 00:44:18.690
hadn't really thought about that until i just
00:44:18.690 --> 00:44:20.510
said it then and i'm just something like yeah
00:44:20.510 --> 00:44:24.090
yeah we don't if anything maybe it's like more
00:44:24.090 --> 00:44:27.320
dangerous to spot because it's like well yeah
00:44:27.320 --> 00:44:32.500
you are going to change the pattern of that that
00:44:32.500 --> 00:44:34.699
climate if they're falling and they're detecting
00:44:34.699 --> 00:44:37.199
and planning as they're falling you know these
00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:39.380
thoughtless calculations millions of times a
00:44:39.380 --> 00:44:41.940
second as we're doing this and then somebody
00:44:41.940 --> 00:44:47.460
pushes them then actually yeah maybe and i suppose
00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:50.920
really spotting came about from outdoors where
00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:53.480
you had to keep the person on that mat because
00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:56.920
you only had one mat and they couldn't roll and
00:44:56.920 --> 00:45:00.300
they can yeah but maybe yeah so and then with
00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:03.079
like outdoor climbing maybe there is kind of
00:45:03.079 --> 00:45:07.500
some sense to if you're serious about the competition
00:45:07.500 --> 00:45:10.219
scene i know i've heard i don't know if this
00:45:10.219 --> 00:45:12.639
is true but i heard people saying like in japan
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:14.360
the cop climbers aren't allowed to go and climb
00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:16.539
outside i don't know about not being allowed
00:45:16.539 --> 00:45:18.639
and again this comes down to you know coaches
00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:20.639
and the relationship they have with their coach
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:22.840
and that kind of thing don't they i certainly
00:45:22.840 --> 00:45:26.480
knew a coach a good long uh time ago now since
00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:28.820
about 15 years or so ago who coached all the
00:45:28.820 --> 00:45:32.900
really successful indoor uh uk climbers and would
00:45:32.900 --> 00:45:35.980
really discourage it wouldn't be like no you're
00:45:35.980 --> 00:45:39.159
banned you're not doing that but would yeah discourage
00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:41.760
it both for that and because the movement was
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:44.659
different and they didn't want different movement
00:45:44.659 --> 00:45:47.079
patterns coming especially if they're inexperienced
00:45:47.079 --> 00:45:51.400
now my solution to that as a coach would be let's
00:45:51.400 --> 00:45:54.389
go climbing yeah let's get our pads let's show
00:45:54.389 --> 00:45:58.650
you how to build a decent uh landing let's look
00:45:58.650 --> 00:46:00.949
at the things that you need to you know look
00:46:00.949 --> 00:46:06.010
at it may definitely be worth you know not going
00:46:06.010 --> 00:46:10.989
for a boulder in the run -up to a comp you know
00:46:10.989 --> 00:46:15.010
if you're in training mode i'm training now for
00:46:15.010 --> 00:46:17.369
this you know what a peak in three months time
00:46:17.369 --> 00:46:21.099
for this particular then yeah you know I can
00:46:21.099 --> 00:46:23.039
certainly think of and I wouldn't be unfair on
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:24.920
people and point people out but certainly you
00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:28.039
know well known to within the climbing media
00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:30.280
of quite a lot of people who've injured themselves
00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:32.639
and then not being able to go to comps and it
00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:34.800
hasn't happened in a comp it's happened outdoor
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:37.119
climbing yeah I mean I guess like thinking of
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:40.559
the comp scene I know like Max had recently come
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:45.889
back from Ankle foot injury? Yeah, a foot injury.
00:46:45.949 --> 00:46:50.269
I did a talk with Max and Molly Thompson -Smith
00:46:50.269 --> 00:46:53.710
at the Kendall Film Festival at the end of last
00:46:53.710 --> 00:46:58.010
year when we were talking about injuries and
00:46:58.010 --> 00:47:00.929
how they deal with it and that kind of thing
00:47:00.929 --> 00:47:05.769
with the drive and the pressures and such that
00:47:05.769 --> 00:47:08.369
they have. It was really quite interesting. And
00:47:08.369 --> 00:47:10.690
yes, he's come back from that. quite successfully
00:47:10.690 --> 00:47:13.409
it would appear from the uh from the thing that
00:47:13.409 --> 00:47:17.909
he did there yeah but he's competing today um
00:47:17.909 --> 00:47:20.909
at one of the walls i work out of is called boulder
00:47:20.909 --> 00:47:24.869
uk um and they have their big competition on
00:47:24.869 --> 00:47:28.530
this weekend it's the plywood masters um and
00:47:28.530 --> 00:47:32.409
so medj is there uh with max and emma that you
00:47:32.409 --> 00:47:34.690
interviewed a few weeks ago and a lot of the
00:47:34.690 --> 00:47:38.070
the gb lots are pretty big a big competition
00:47:38.070 --> 00:47:41.719
is ifsc style that qualifies for yesterday and
00:47:41.719 --> 00:47:43.820
they've got semis and finals and stuff today
00:47:43.820 --> 00:47:48.599
um yeah that'll be cool but yeah was his injury
00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:51.179
like outdoor related and then is this like kind
00:47:51.179 --> 00:47:53.900
of what triggered your no it was a a fracture
00:47:53.900 --> 00:47:57.639
within his foot but not an acute one um and essentially
00:47:57.639 --> 00:48:00.780
potentially i don't know that this is from chatting
00:48:00.780 --> 00:48:04.139
with him sort of on stage and such like um just
00:48:04.139 --> 00:48:08.059
from doing an absolute ton of you know run jump
00:48:08.809 --> 00:48:13.329
type oh really work um oh god and and like with
00:48:13.329 --> 00:48:15.329
any if you think you know the the shoes that
00:48:15.329 --> 00:48:18.090
comp climbers wear are soft aren't they it's
00:48:18.090 --> 00:48:22.050
not a supportive kind of a shoe and if he was
00:48:22.050 --> 00:48:24.469
again i'm speculating slightly here but if he
00:48:24.469 --> 00:48:27.449
was in a phase where he was like right i'm really
00:48:27.449 --> 00:48:29.670
drilling these i'm gonna this is gonna be the
00:48:29.670 --> 00:48:33.690
focus um and a pretty you know unexpected sort
00:48:33.690 --> 00:48:36.469
of consequence load management which is always
00:48:36.469 --> 00:48:38.739
easy with hindsight load management is really
00:48:38.739 --> 00:48:40.920
difficult it's always easy to look back and go
00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:44.380
oh yeah i went from doing a few jumps a session
00:48:44.380 --> 00:48:49.460
to doing a hundred jumps a session you know that
00:48:49.460 --> 00:48:53.599
might have an effect somewhere but as a fairly
00:48:53.599 --> 00:49:00.920
zeroed in focused athlete um yeah he set to it
00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:03.920
and yeah then ended up with the fractured bone
00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:06.400
in his foot okay i thought that was maybe from
00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:09.789
outdoors but Well, he did things the other way.
00:49:09.869 --> 00:49:15.829
He went with his injury and I think he was still
00:49:15.829 --> 00:49:20.489
in an air cast boot at the point and flashed
00:49:20.489 --> 00:49:26.829
a famous 8B boulder. Oh, right. Yeah, with no
00:49:26.829 --> 00:49:29.829
feet. Put the boot on. Yeah, I did hear about
00:49:29.829 --> 00:49:33.530
that. It's quite a high one as well. It's not
00:49:33.530 --> 00:49:37.920
a... It's not like a little low ball that wouldn't
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:40.360
have mattered if he'd fallen off it. Oh, gosh.
00:49:40.860 --> 00:49:42.940
He was talking about that, though, and there
00:49:42.940 --> 00:49:44.840
was, as with all these things, there was a lot
00:49:44.840 --> 00:49:47.599
more thought and whatever that went into that
00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:49.739
process and discussion with various people. He
00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:51.679
didn't just suddenly, you know, the day after
00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:54.579
breaking his foot, think, right, I'm off to go
00:49:54.579 --> 00:49:57.880
and do the ace foot. There were actually kind
00:49:57.880 --> 00:50:01.519
of a lot of, like, big -name injuries this year,
00:50:01.659 --> 00:50:06.019
along with, like, Toby's injury. Natalia also
00:50:06.019 --> 00:50:08.000
coming back from an injury. Yeah, there's a lot.
00:50:08.119 --> 00:50:13.880
Yeah. I don't know whether, you know, we've now
00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:18.219
got a real circuit, haven't we? My sort of slight
00:50:18.219 --> 00:50:23.980
comparison would be to women's soccer, where
00:50:23.980 --> 00:50:27.539
there appear to be these really high injury rates
00:50:27.539 --> 00:50:32.639
compared to men's soccer. We think part of that
00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:36.480
is a gender difference, a sex difference, that
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:39.280
type of thing. But it's also the fact that these
00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:42.699
athletes have never been operating at that level
00:50:42.699 --> 00:50:47.159
that many times before. They've got a Premier
00:50:47.159 --> 00:50:49.739
League to play in. They've got European Cups.
00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:52.780
They've got World Cups. They've got all of this
00:50:52.780 --> 00:50:56.539
volume to do now. Whereas before, that was never
00:50:56.539 --> 00:51:01.590
there. injury rates increasing within comp climbers
00:51:01.590 --> 00:51:07.710
or are people now feeling more at ease with saying
00:51:07.710 --> 00:51:11.510
i've got an injury because it has almost in the
00:51:11.510 --> 00:51:14.469
past been seen as a weakness for somebody like
00:51:14.469 --> 00:51:18.429
erin uh not so long ago um who you know put on
00:51:18.429 --> 00:51:20.250
social media and she basically you know i'm having
00:51:20.250 --> 00:51:22.210
a bit of a break for the sake of my mental health
00:51:22.210 --> 00:51:25.289
and the response to that now is like that sounds
00:51:25.289 --> 00:51:28.449
sensible good on you yeah rather than like oh
00:51:29.019 --> 00:51:33.340
you know what's going on there um yeah and that
00:51:33.340 --> 00:51:35.719
you know just showing that they're they're people
00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:41.440
not just these athletic robots and so yeah are
00:51:41.440 --> 00:51:45.500
people you know admitting that they've got injuries
00:51:45.500 --> 00:51:48.420
instead of competing when maybe they shouldn't
00:51:48.420 --> 00:51:50.840
you know are we making more sensible decisions
00:51:50.840 --> 00:51:55.599
or are we doing so much with our climbers now
00:51:55.599 --> 00:51:58.889
that there's this constant Right, because even
00:51:58.889 --> 00:52:03.250
within the comp scene, as in, you know, the structured
00:52:03.250 --> 00:52:07.590
IFSC type stuff, there's all these comps that,
00:52:07.610 --> 00:52:08.929
you know, like we were just talking about, the
00:52:08.929 --> 00:52:11.610
Plywood Masters and the weekend before was Last
00:52:11.610 --> 00:52:14.550
Sundance is another sort of quite big one here
00:52:14.550 --> 00:52:18.170
in the UK. Then it's going to be Quiff. Oh, wow.
00:52:18.710 --> 00:52:22.889
Yeah. It's a long season, yeah. Yeah, it's never
00:52:22.889 --> 00:52:24.309
-ending. Or it's not even the season, it's like
00:52:24.309 --> 00:52:27.539
off -season still. Yeah, so this is... yeah this
00:52:27.539 --> 00:52:30.260
is athletes for you isn't it you know they don't
00:52:30.260 --> 00:52:32.079
want an off season they want to just keep going
00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:35.559
they they don't have that belief um that actually
00:52:35.559 --> 00:52:37.400
a bit of time off is really good for you and
00:52:37.400 --> 00:52:41.360
you'll come back maybe a bit better but it's
00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:46.179
also this these comps like flywoodson are put
00:52:46.179 --> 00:52:49.380
there purposely in the run -up to comp season
00:52:49.380 --> 00:52:51.639
this is what they use as their sharpener to get
00:52:51.639 --> 00:52:54.789
back into comp prior to, which is why you get
00:52:54.789 --> 00:52:57.469
people like Max and Majdeen. Cool. Makes sense.
00:52:57.849 --> 00:53:01.369
Well, let's get into a couple of the audience
00:53:01.369 --> 00:53:03.510
submitted questions. We've got a couple here.
00:53:04.190 --> 00:53:08.010
Yeah. So the first one, what are the most common
00:53:08.010 --> 00:53:10.510
injuries in your experience for adults who are
00:53:10.510 --> 00:53:13.329
breaking into the comp scene without having any
00:53:13.329 --> 00:53:16.750
like previous youth comp experience? Okay. That's
00:53:16.750 --> 00:53:19.409
an interesting one, isn't it? If you see that
00:53:19.409 --> 00:53:22.369
much, I don't know. It's not one that I see that
00:53:22.369 --> 00:53:25.829
much. um but if they're getting into like the
00:53:25.829 --> 00:53:28.250
comp scene i'm presuming that meaning you know
00:53:28.250 --> 00:53:30.389
as i was just touching on there's a competition
00:53:30.389 --> 00:53:33.849
every week you know within each area not necessarily
00:53:33.849 --> 00:53:36.789
just in the uk and that you could certainly go
00:53:36.789 --> 00:53:40.369
to it would be volume it would be most likely
00:53:40.369 --> 00:53:45.289
i would suggest elbow issues um of comp style
00:53:45.289 --> 00:53:49.670
slapping banging jumping paddling you know that
00:53:49.670 --> 00:53:53.309
type of thing but then also A lot of them tend
00:53:53.309 --> 00:53:55.489
to have some kind of a scramble format at the
00:53:55.489 --> 00:54:00.590
start or, you know, 30 problems to climb of ascending
00:54:00.590 --> 00:54:03.190
difficulty and how you approach that and how
00:54:03.190 --> 00:54:05.489
you manage that. You can easily overload yourself
00:54:05.489 --> 00:54:08.469
by just starting at number one and trying to
00:54:08.469 --> 00:54:10.789
work your way up to number 30 is not always the
00:54:10.789 --> 00:54:14.789
way to do it. So, yeah, I would suggest it's
00:54:14.789 --> 00:54:19.550
most likely to be chronic, you know, some kind
00:54:19.550 --> 00:54:22.039
of a tendinopathy. particularly elbows, I would
00:54:22.039 --> 00:54:26.219
think. Comp style problems now, not many crimps
00:54:26.219 --> 00:54:29.139
around, really. So probably not crimp related.
00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:32.079
The second part of the question was any generalist
00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:35.760
advice you would give to prevent those kinds
00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:40.219
of injuries for adults who are getting into these
00:54:40.219 --> 00:54:43.500
comp injuries? Yeah, and if you wanted to, a
00:54:43.500 --> 00:54:45.320
lot of the time with this kind of thing, the
00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:49.110
nice... part about the advice is that it matches
00:54:49.110 --> 00:54:51.630
also with what they want to do, if that makes
00:54:51.630 --> 00:54:55.050
sense. So to be a decent comp climber, you have
00:54:55.050 --> 00:54:58.449
to be good at the different types of climb that
00:54:58.449 --> 00:55:00.949
you're going to be faced with. So you need to
00:55:00.949 --> 00:55:04.670
train with variety. You need to train technique.
00:55:04.809 --> 00:55:08.269
You don't just train physical all the time. You
00:55:08.269 --> 00:55:10.809
need to do some technique drills and that kind
00:55:10.809 --> 00:55:14.050
of thing and learn some new movements. break
00:55:14.050 --> 00:55:16.530
things down you know if you can't jump from volume
00:55:16.530 --> 00:55:19.409
to volume you need to make your own up at a level
00:55:19.409 --> 00:55:21.989
where you can start to to grapple with that so
00:55:21.989 --> 00:55:24.750
within either a climbing session or a climb week
00:55:24.750 --> 00:55:28.630
or you know some kind of a training um block
00:55:28.630 --> 00:55:33.170
you need some easy work yeah and and some medium
00:55:33.170 --> 00:55:36.329
skills consolidation type work and then some
00:55:36.329 --> 00:55:40.349
hard work as well and then behind that some um
00:55:40.349 --> 00:55:44.590
general strength training basically to you know
00:55:44.590 --> 00:55:47.630
to be robust enough to be dealing with this and
00:55:47.630 --> 00:55:50.829
to then realize that's going to take time yeah
00:55:50.829 --> 00:55:53.489
and don't sort of run before you can walk kind
00:55:53.489 --> 00:55:57.070
of thing and just build that up gradually um
00:55:57.070 --> 00:56:00.329
but one of the things that really helps prevent
00:56:00.329 --> 00:56:04.150
injury is variety you know talking about load
00:56:04.150 --> 00:56:06.630
management again if you just climb on the board
00:56:06.630 --> 00:56:10.340
all the time you're more likely to get injuries
00:56:10.340 --> 00:56:12.699
that I'd see obviously commonly associated with
00:56:12.699 --> 00:56:16.000
board climbing. But if somebody sport climbs
00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:18.719
once a week, boulders once a week, board climbs
00:56:18.719 --> 00:56:21.460
once a week, goes to the gym once or twice a
00:56:21.460 --> 00:56:24.820
week, they're less likely to get injured. It's
00:56:24.820 --> 00:56:26.960
actually interesting that you mentioned elbows
00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:29.659
being the main thing. I also kind of thought
00:56:29.659 --> 00:56:31.539
shoulders would be a main thing as well. But
00:56:31.539 --> 00:56:35.219
just recently for me personally, I am working
00:56:35.219 --> 00:56:38.349
through elbow injuries. So I was like, oh. I
00:56:38.349 --> 00:56:39.889
guess you were right on the nose with that one.
00:56:40.690 --> 00:56:44.429
The elbow is the middle management of the arm.
00:56:44.869 --> 00:56:47.769
If we've got a wrist or a hand, a problem that's
00:56:47.769 --> 00:56:52.809
engaging with the hold and the wall, it's the
00:56:52.809 --> 00:56:56.750
elbow that has to compensate. For example, if
00:56:56.750 --> 00:56:59.050
you've lost some range in your wrist through
00:56:59.050 --> 00:57:01.969
a TFCC issue or something like that, I'm exaggerating
00:57:01.969 --> 00:57:04.030
with the hand angle here, but you can only get
00:57:04.030 --> 00:57:07.070
your hand that far over and it wants to be here.
00:57:07.630 --> 00:57:11.789
what what's compensating for that is is the elbow
00:57:11.789 --> 00:57:14.670
yeah as we have to lift that up now obviously
00:57:14.670 --> 00:57:16.289
there's something that happens at the shoulder
00:57:16.289 --> 00:57:19.730
as well but this is much happier down here that's
00:57:19.730 --> 00:57:23.269
a long story short yeah it is out there and then
00:57:23.269 --> 00:57:26.190
there's the yeah the you know the change in in
00:57:26.190 --> 00:57:28.889
setting now yes we are seeing more shoulder problems
00:57:28.889 --> 00:57:34.789
but often it will show itself in the elbow first
00:57:36.130 --> 00:57:39.469
from my kind of there's a bit of research behind
00:57:39.469 --> 00:57:43.829
that but yeah anecdotally I will pretty much
00:57:43.829 --> 00:57:46.449
always if somebody comes with an elbow problem
00:57:46.449 --> 00:57:51.230
like a tendinopathy type thing I will pretty
00:57:51.230 --> 00:57:54.230
much always test the shoulder and have a look
00:57:54.230 --> 00:57:57.090
and often they'll be like no my shoulders are
00:57:57.090 --> 00:57:59.329
fine they're okay no problems with the shoulders
00:57:59.329 --> 00:58:01.389
it's like well it only takes five minutes let's
00:58:01.389 --> 00:58:03.719
just let's just do the test and then you're Find
00:58:03.719 --> 00:58:06.119
something that's significant enough to make you
00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:09.199
think, hmm, yeah, maybe something's going on
00:58:09.199 --> 00:58:11.119
there and we need to address that as well. So
00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:13.360
that can be kind of like the root cause and the
00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:16.900
elbow is what shows. And so you also mentioned
00:58:16.900 --> 00:58:20.199
that the elbow can come from the big slappy problems
00:58:20.199 --> 00:58:27.579
too. Yeah, and compression. So what terms are
00:58:27.579 --> 00:58:32.019
a bit interchangeable, I mean, what I call climber's
00:58:32.019 --> 00:58:36.570
elbow. um he's not golfers or tennis it's not
00:58:36.570 --> 00:58:39.949
a bicep tendinopathy it tends to be brachialis
00:58:39.949 --> 00:58:42.150
which is a muscle that sits under the biceps
00:58:42.150 --> 00:58:46.809
and is very active in that kind of range yeah
00:58:46.809 --> 00:58:50.530
really controlling the elbow so get it sometimes
00:58:50.530 --> 00:58:52.929
with people who have been max hanging weighted
00:58:52.929 --> 00:58:56.130
max hangs and we've got this kind of this angle
00:58:56.130 --> 00:59:00.670
at the elbow but also when we're slappy wide
00:59:00.670 --> 00:59:05.980
yeah big sloper bang on to them yeah it's it's
00:59:05.980 --> 00:59:09.219
that and i'd also sort of like sometimes call
00:59:09.219 --> 00:59:12.340
it font elbow which i'm sure a lot of people
00:59:12.340 --> 00:59:15.280
will know font but it's it's often a powerful
00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:18.860
compressive slopey style of climbing and people
00:59:18.860 --> 00:59:21.860
will often come back from font kind of like this
00:59:21.860 --> 00:59:27.219
and say can you help me yeah yeah so the tendons
00:59:27.219 --> 00:59:30.980
are sensitive to velocity basically so you know
00:59:30.980 --> 00:59:33.400
if you load something really fast even coming
00:59:33.400 --> 00:59:37.579
off is is a change in in the load that the strain
00:59:37.579 --> 00:59:39.739
that's being put through the tendon so if you're
00:59:39.739 --> 00:59:42.099
squeezing as hard as you can and then suddenly
00:59:42.099 --> 00:59:46.139
let go that that tendon yeah and it so it works
00:59:46.139 --> 00:59:48.159
both ways and then you know a fraction of a second
00:59:48.159 --> 00:59:51.110
later you're slapping again as you're uh as you're
00:59:51.110 --> 00:59:53.630
making your way up okay and then um the other
00:59:53.630 --> 00:59:56.070
audience question you mentioned hyper mobility
00:59:56.070 --> 00:59:59.050
a little bit earlier um but yeah this one was
00:59:59.050 --> 01:00:03.369
uh from ariana do on instagram um should folks
01:00:03.369 --> 01:00:06.969
with hyper mobility even climb as i touched on
01:00:06.969 --> 01:00:10.349
earlier um most things i say come with some kind
01:00:10.349 --> 01:00:14.489
of a context gray area type thing uh my general
01:00:14.489 --> 01:00:19.929
rule is yes um but you know you would need to
01:00:19.929 --> 01:00:24.849
be both assessed by somebody on the medical side
01:00:24.849 --> 01:00:27.789
of things and then somebody who also understands
01:00:27.789 --> 01:00:30.929
and knows climbing and physicality and the body
01:00:30.929 --> 01:00:33.030
and that kind of thing and just make sure you're
01:00:33.030 --> 01:00:35.769
doing the right thing for you really as far as
01:00:35.769 --> 01:00:39.590
that goes there's a bit like with arthritis that
01:00:39.590 --> 01:00:42.170
we touched on before there's this hyper mobility
01:00:42.170 --> 01:00:47.409
thing you know and what is it um So there's the
01:00:47.409 --> 01:00:50.750
standardized sort of what's known as a bedside
01:00:50.750 --> 01:00:55.110
test. And by that, it means that doctors are
01:00:55.110 --> 01:00:58.230
able to administer it very quickly. And it gives
01:00:58.230 --> 01:01:01.489
us a rough idea that they can just do in a few
01:01:01.489 --> 01:01:02.829
minutes. And that's these things like, you know,
01:01:02.849 --> 01:01:05.949
can you bend your thumb down to me? You know,
01:01:05.949 --> 01:01:08.650
do your elbows bend a bit backwards? That kind
01:01:08.650 --> 01:01:10.690
of thing. Do your knees bend backwards? Can you
01:01:10.690 --> 01:01:12.989
touch your hands down to the floor? And it's
01:01:12.989 --> 01:01:17.280
called the Baten scale. Really, when we look
01:01:17.280 --> 01:01:20.800
at where we got what is a standard range in a
01:01:20.800 --> 01:01:23.900
joint from, the data itself is a bit flawed.
01:01:23.960 --> 01:01:26.079
I won't bore you with it all. But back in the
01:01:26.079 --> 01:01:29.059
day, we weren't considering Asian populations.
01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:32.380
We weren't considering African populations. We
01:01:32.380 --> 01:01:38.019
now have, in general, different ranges of mobility.
01:01:38.300 --> 01:01:41.199
So somebody might be entirely normal for their
01:01:41.199 --> 01:01:44.179
population, but gets told, oh, you're hypermobile.
01:01:44.860 --> 01:01:47.639
And that brings with it a vulnerability that's
01:01:47.639 --> 01:01:50.320
not necessarily required that they think, oh,
01:01:50.340 --> 01:01:53.219
well, maybe I better stop doing activity than
01:01:53.219 --> 01:01:56.199
that. This person's guessing here, but maybe
01:01:56.199 --> 01:01:58.019
thinking, well, perhaps I should stop climbing.
01:01:58.119 --> 01:02:02.900
Maybe it's not the thing for me. So, yeah, hypermobility
01:02:02.900 --> 01:02:07.880
now is really looked at as a medical diagnosis.
01:02:08.519 --> 01:02:14.719
It's a disorder of the collagen. within the body.
01:02:14.820 --> 01:02:17.500
That's the connective tissue. Pretty much all
01:02:17.500 --> 01:02:19.940
of our connective tissue is collagen. So that's
01:02:19.940 --> 01:02:22.440
why it shows as joints that have more range,
01:02:22.659 --> 01:02:27.440
because the ligaments are maybe a bit more lax.
01:02:27.519 --> 01:02:29.840
Yeah, they're a bit more elastic because the
01:02:29.840 --> 01:02:32.639
collagen within them isn't that fantastic. But
01:02:32.639 --> 01:02:35.519
it also, if you've got a true hypermobility disorder,
01:02:35.739 --> 01:02:37.920
and the most commonly known one is one called
01:02:37.920 --> 01:02:41.440
Ehlers -Danlos syndrome, that in itself, I think
01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:44.809
now we're up to... 18 derivatives of it you know
01:02:44.809 --> 01:02:47.329
and it's only found through genetic testing so
01:02:47.329 --> 01:02:51.429
you know somebody can't do this and can you bend
01:02:51.429 --> 01:02:53.309
your finger back and can you do all right you're
01:02:53.309 --> 01:02:56.809
hyper mobile that could be enough to think maybe
01:02:56.809 --> 01:03:00.329
this person needs further investigation yeah
01:03:00.329 --> 01:03:03.809
but you shouldn't label somebody from that um
01:03:03.809 --> 01:03:07.210
yeah it so the connective tissue throughout the
01:03:07.210 --> 01:03:10.349
entire body is affected so often people will
01:03:10.349 --> 01:03:12.989
have things like irritable bowel type symptoms
01:03:12.989 --> 01:03:16.409
because that's all made out of collagen they
01:03:16.409 --> 01:03:20.630
can have you know serious health issues within
01:03:20.630 --> 01:03:24.050
the the supportive structure that holds the aorta
01:03:24.050 --> 01:03:28.210
in place uh is connective tissue they can get
01:03:28.210 --> 01:03:31.369
uh lots of eye you know membrane type issues
01:03:31.369 --> 01:03:35.469
and that kind of thing so now it it's like that's
01:03:35.469 --> 01:03:39.090
hypermobility if somebody's just a bit rangy
01:03:39.090 --> 01:03:43.949
and and it is quite bendy but isn't presenting
01:03:43.949 --> 01:03:47.309
with a history of subluxations, you know, where
01:03:47.309 --> 01:03:51.230
a joint might pop out and go back in. And they
01:03:51.230 --> 01:03:53.349
do mad party tricks, you know, where they fold
01:03:53.349 --> 01:03:55.289
their arm around their back and then step through
01:03:55.289 --> 01:03:57.190
inside their own leg and put the leg around the
01:03:57.190 --> 01:03:59.170
back. You know, that's the kind of thing that's
01:03:59.170 --> 01:04:01.250
making you think like, ooh, potentially somebody
01:04:01.250 --> 01:04:03.369
might be a bit hypermobile and that might need
01:04:03.369 --> 01:04:06.510
looking at. Yeah, rather than just somebody that
01:04:06.510 --> 01:04:11.110
can touch the toes really well. So there is definitely,
01:04:12.199 --> 01:04:15.900
an increased risk if somebody does have hypermobility,
01:04:16.099 --> 01:04:20.119
but it can be really well managed. Strengthening
01:04:20.119 --> 01:04:23.099
through range with a well -planned program is
01:04:23.099 --> 01:04:25.960
fantastic. You can take things out of it by,
01:04:26.079 --> 01:04:29.000
you know, if maybe that person, it wouldn't be
01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:32.739
great for them to boulder. And this is just as
01:04:32.739 --> 01:04:35.760
an example, you know, they may want to top rope
01:04:35.760 --> 01:04:39.159
or auto belay or lead climb on steep stuff where
01:04:39.159 --> 01:04:40.780
they're not going to make an impact into the
01:04:40.780 --> 01:04:43.269
wall. You know, that kind of thing. So it could
01:04:43.269 --> 01:04:45.929
be the dropping off and falling could be the
01:04:45.929 --> 01:04:48.610
problem that you could manage while they were
01:04:48.610 --> 01:04:50.750
building some strength and that kind of thing.
01:04:50.809 --> 01:04:53.389
So even if somebody is, definitely wouldn't just
01:04:53.389 --> 01:04:58.210
say no. Have you seen any like hypermobile climbers
01:04:58.210 --> 01:05:01.369
on the comp circuit? Well, it's going to draw
01:05:01.369 --> 01:05:05.869
people who are naturally have greater range are
01:05:05.869 --> 01:05:08.190
going to be drawn to what, you know, that why
01:05:08.190 --> 01:05:10.980
didn't I play basketball at school? i'm five
01:05:10.980 --> 01:05:13.780
foot eight on a good day yeah um you know the
01:05:13.780 --> 01:05:16.659
people who played basketball were were over six
01:05:16.659 --> 01:05:18.579
foot tall it doesn't matter how good you are
01:05:18.579 --> 01:05:20.320
you know you're never going to make it to the
01:05:20.320 --> 01:05:24.400
uh the nba unless you you know six foot six and
01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:29.679
a half foot plus um and so in a sport that requires
01:05:29.679 --> 01:05:33.099
some crazy positions doesn't it nowadays you
01:05:33.099 --> 01:05:35.980
know and range so you know do we get people in
01:05:35.980 --> 01:05:39.980
gymnastics who are hyper mobile yes because they
01:05:39.980 --> 01:05:42.500
could probably do the splits on day one when
01:05:42.500 --> 01:05:44.559
they went for their first ever gymnastics lesson
01:05:44.559 --> 01:05:48.199
and got told like oh you're good at this and
01:05:48.199 --> 01:05:52.139
so we go to the things that we're good at don't
01:05:52.139 --> 01:05:55.820
we um so yeah absolutely i see both people who
01:05:55.820 --> 01:06:01.199
are who have naturally a high range of motion
01:06:01.199 --> 01:06:05.500
within certain joints most often the hips that's
01:06:05.500 --> 01:06:07.500
appropriate and gives them a bit of an advantage
01:06:07.500 --> 01:06:10.360
if you look at it from that way and i also i
01:06:10.360 --> 01:06:13.960
definitely have treated and know people um yeah
01:06:13.960 --> 01:06:17.559
who have hyper mobility and so in a way it could
01:06:17.559 --> 01:06:21.219
be better to be hyper mobile yeah yeah basically
01:06:21.219 --> 01:06:23.739
it's about have we got control in those ranges
01:06:23.739 --> 01:06:26.139
if you haven't got the ability to control that
01:06:26.139 --> 01:06:29.659
joint in that range then that's potentially not
01:06:29.659 --> 01:06:32.340
good news um but you could but that can be worked
01:06:32.340 --> 01:06:35.840
on yeah yeah yeah for most people yeah yeah and
01:06:35.840 --> 01:06:38.260
in most circumstances we can if nothing else
01:06:38.260 --> 01:06:42.219
improve things um but yeah is it an advantage
01:06:42.219 --> 01:06:44.579
you know i'm sure we've all seen the the beta
01:06:44.579 --> 01:06:46.760
breaks in comps haven't we where somebody's done
01:06:46.760 --> 01:06:49.440
the splits or whatever you know and that kind
01:06:49.440 --> 01:06:51.659
of thing well i wouldn't be able to do that beta
01:06:51.659 --> 01:06:54.300
break not that i'd be in that comp anyway but
01:06:54.300 --> 01:06:56.300
you know that's just that's just not even on
01:06:56.300 --> 01:06:58.800
the cards for me because it wouldn't happen okay
01:06:58.800 --> 01:07:02.079
gotcha Okay, cool. Well, I think that's all the
01:07:02.079 --> 01:07:04.420
questions I had. Thanks for joining me again
01:07:04.420 --> 01:07:08.480
today. Any like last minute words of wisdom you
01:07:08.480 --> 01:07:10.539
want to get out there or anything else that we
01:07:10.539 --> 01:07:13.940
didn't cover? I suppose it's what I've touched
01:07:13.940 --> 01:07:16.480
on really that I'm all about, whether it be youth
01:07:16.480 --> 01:07:20.019
or adults. It's if you're changing something,
01:07:20.320 --> 01:07:23.059
whether that's going from indoor climbing to
01:07:23.059 --> 01:07:25.840
outdoor climbing, take your time with it. If
01:07:25.840 --> 01:07:28.519
you're changing a new training thing, take your
01:07:28.519 --> 01:07:31.969
time with it. yeah that's load management yeah
01:07:31.969 --> 01:07:34.550
and management of risk and then you don't have
01:07:34.550 --> 01:07:37.730
to come and see me is what it's all about and
01:07:37.730 --> 01:07:39.949
I've forgotten to say all the way through this
01:07:39.949 --> 01:07:43.769
I've kept thinking I've got your hoodie on oh
01:07:43.769 --> 01:07:46.590
yeah yeah I was like yeah I noticed that halfway
01:07:46.590 --> 01:07:49.110
through maybe if you had like lowered your camera
01:07:49.110 --> 01:07:51.710
a little bit yeah I wanted to let oh yeah yeah
01:07:51.710 --> 01:07:54.550
yeah I should have done ah I should have done
01:07:54.550 --> 01:07:56.030
that shouldn't I sorry but it was just showing
01:07:56.030 --> 01:08:00.000
that awful no no it's all good It's cool. It's
01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:02.619
come to Spain with me. Yeah. It's, it's really
01:08:02.619 --> 01:08:06.019
warm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's my, um, yeah, it's
01:08:06.019 --> 01:08:09.019
my cozy hoodie. Thank you very much. Yeah. It's
01:08:09.019 --> 01:08:11.099
like a lot warmer than I thought, which is nice.
01:08:11.260 --> 01:08:14.559
It's perfect. Cool. Thank you very much. Yeah.
01:08:14.699 --> 01:08:16.359
And do you want to let people know where they
01:08:16.359 --> 01:08:19.680
can find you? Yeah. So I'm yeah. Process .physio
01:08:19.680 --> 01:08:24.600
on Instagram, uh, where I try to put my. thoughts
01:08:24.600 --> 01:08:26.720
mainly around things that hopefully can help
01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:30.239
people on there um and my sort of website for
01:08:30.239 --> 01:08:33.159
my professional side of things is processphysiotherapy
01:08:33.159 --> 01:08:37.659
.co .uk i do do remote i work with patients around
01:08:37.659 --> 01:08:40.640
the world but often also just as you may have
01:08:40.640 --> 01:08:42.800
noticed from this i'm happy to chat about stuff
01:08:42.800 --> 01:08:45.779
so you know if people have got any kind of questions
01:08:45.779 --> 01:08:47.560
you don't need to engage with me on a professional
01:08:47.560 --> 01:08:49.760
level you can just yeah power it over and if
01:08:49.760 --> 01:08:52.340
i've got time i'll answer Awesome. Okay. Well,
01:08:52.399 --> 01:08:54.340
thank you again. It's amazing to talk to you.
01:08:54.399 --> 01:08:57.220
Cheers, Ginny. Thank you. Thank you so much for
01:08:57.220 --> 01:08:59.579
making it to the end of the podcast. Don't forget
01:08:59.579 --> 01:09:02.060
to like and subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise,
01:09:02.220 --> 01:09:05.520
you are a super fake climber. If you're listening
01:09:05.520 --> 01:09:08.079
on a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you
01:09:08.079 --> 01:09:11.039
rate it five stars and you can continue the discussion
01:09:11.039 --> 01:09:14.199
on the free competition climbing discord linked
01:09:14.199 --> 01:09:16.640
in the description. Thanks again for listening.
